A 73 ans, Ernestine Ronai est une pionnière de la lutte contre les féminicides en France. Elle préside aujourd’hui l’Observatoire des violences faites aux femmes de Seine-Saint-Denis et elle est co-présidente de la Commission violences du Haut conseil à l’égalité entre les femmes et les hommes. Dans une vie antérieure, elle fut aussi institutrice et psychologue scolaire. Elle revient sur l’un de ses combats: la protection de l’enfance dans le cadre des violences conjugales.
Comment a évolué la protection à l’enfance dans le cadre des violences conjugales ?
Au départ, on parlait des enfants “témoins des violences conjugales”, puis des enfants “exposés aux violences”. Mais aujourd’hui, il faut parler d’enfants co-victimes des violences. La mère est victime mais les enfants aussi.
Cette nouvelle considération des enfants a eu des répercussions et notamment dans la loi. La première loi qui prend en compte les enfants co-victimes des violences conjugales date de juillet 2010. Il n’y a donc pas très longtemps. Cette loi a mis en place l’ordonnance de protection et donc la possibilité pour le magistrat de supprimer le droit de visite du père, de l’encadrer ou de l’adapter. Mais aussi, la possibilité de faire “le passage de bras” entre le père et la mère à travers une personne de confiance ou bien par une association. Car cette période d’échange des enfants est un moment dangereux, Monsieur peut revoir Madame mais aussi instrumentaliser les enfants.
Puis en 2014, nous avons eu une autre avancée. Il a été acté dans la loi que lorsque l’un des parents tuait l’autre, les magistrats avaient l’obligation au cours du procès des Assises de poser la question de l’autorité parentale. Plus tard en 2018, avec la loi Schiappa, on a réussi à faire passer que si les enfants étaient présents au moment des violences, il s’agit d’une circonstance aggravante. Et pour finir, en 2019, on a obtenu le retrait automatique de l’autorité parentale en cas de féminicide.
Que pensez-vous de la loi de 2019 prise suite au Grenelle, qui considère qu’en cas de féminicide, il y a retrait automatique de l’autorité parentale ?
Alors, c’est bien, mais le problème c’est que ce retrait automatique ne dure que six mois. Si au bout de six mois, le juge redonne l’autorité parentale, de sa prison, le père peut décider si l’enfant fait du latin ou du grec, s’il peut faire du poney ou bien même encore partir en Angleterre avec l’école. L’autorité parentale, c’est dans le cadre de l’intérêt de l’enfant, et on voit bien que si le père tue la mère de ses enfants, c’est tout sauf l’intérêt de l’enfant. C’est invraisemblable. Donc je voudrais que ce retrait de l’autorité parentale se fasse au moins jusqu’aux Assises.
Que pensez-vous de la mesure qui donne aux juges pénaux la possibilité d’aménager ou de suspendre l’autorité parentale du conjoint violent ?
Je pense qu’il ne le feront pas. C’est une mesure civile et les juges pénaux ne sont pas les juges civils, je n’y crois pas. A mon avis, il serait mieux de penser que le juge pénal, le procureur, ou le juge correctionnel passent le dossier aux juges des affaires familiales une fois le conjoint violent condamné. Et, ce serait à eux de décider pour l’autorité parentale. Les jugements se font au cas par cas, cela dépend aussi des représentations qu’on se fait de la violence. Ce qui est compliqué aussi, c’est qu’on a pas d’évaluation sur les décisions de justice. Mais je sais quand même que c’est difficilement appliqué d’autant que cette mesure est très récente.
Et votre avis sur la mesure concernant l’augmentation du nombre d’espaces de rencontres médiatisés disponibles ? Ces lieux de rencontres distincts du domicile permettent aux pères auteurs de violences de garder leur droit de visite.
Les espaces de rencontres médiatisés oui, mais dans le cas d’un conflit conjugal mais pas en cas de violence. Dans les conflits, les parents sont à égalité, un tiers peut aider à dialoguer durant la période délicate de la séparation. Si on est dans la violence, on est dans l’inégalité entre victime et agresseur. Il y a quelqu’un qui domine et on ne peut pas dialoguer avec un dominant. Ces espaces ne sont pas assez sécurisés et les professionnels qui les encadrent ne sont pas formés à la violence. Pour moi, la solution passe par un espace de rencontre protégé, comme nous l’avons mis en place en Seine-St-Denis. Un lieu où on empêche Monsieur d’instrumentaliser ses enfants, si on pense que l’enfant peut voir son père. Et si on pense qu’il n’est pas obligé de le voir, on suspend le droit de visite.
Un conjoint violent ne peut-il pas être un bon père pour vous ?
Non ! On est d’accord, bien sûr, c’est important pour un enfant d’avoir son père et sa mère. Mais, les enfants souffrent énormément des violences dans le couple. J’ai quelques chiffres en tête : dans un cas de violence conjugale sur deux, les maris violents sont aussi violents avec leurs enfants. Ça peut être de la violence physique mais aussi psychologique. Il dévalorise l’enfant comme il dévalorise sa femme. Et, dans 69% des cas, les enfants violents dans les centres fermés ont été co-victimes de violences conjugales. C’est énorme ! Le risque de devenir violent à son tour lorsqu’on a assisté à des violences conjugales est beaucoup plus important.
Est-ce qu’il y a encore des choses aujourd’hui qui vous semblent insuffisantes concernant la protection à l’enfance ?
Je fais partie de la commission violence sexuelle-inceste. Le trou dans la raquette le plus important, c’est la violence sexuelle incestueuse. Lorsque l’enfant révèle des violences sexuelles dans le cadre de violences conjugales, on va avoir tendance à penser que la mère a instrumentalisé l’enfant, qu’elle veut le droit de garde exclusif. C’est le syndrome d’aliénation parentale.
Qu’est-ce que l’aliénation parentale ?
L’aliénation parentale, c’est dire que la mère manipule l’enfant pour que l’enfant dise : “ J’ai été victime de violences sexuelles”. Pourtant, au niveau scientifique, ça n’est pas reconnu et au niveau international, ça n’existe pas. Un certain nombre de magistrats en France utilisent ce concept pour dire que la mère manipule les enfants. Dans les études internationales qui ont été faites, on constate qu’il y a très peu d’allégations mensongères de la part des mères. Il vaut mieux être dans un principe de précaution et protéger l’enfant plutôt que le père agresseur.
Quel bilan faire un an et demi après le Grenelle des violences conjugales ?
Ce qui est très marquant et qui a été très positif de mon point de vue, c’est la mobilisation de la société. C’est venu du fait que les associations féministes se sont mises à compter les victimes, à faire des collages et surtout, à les nommer. Ça change tout, plutôt que de dire qu’une femme meurt tous les deux ou trois jours. Je pense que ce qu’a fait le Grenelle, c’est qu’il a amplifié cette mobilisation. Et la société collectivement, solidairement, a pris conscience des violences faites aux femmes et à leurs enfants par ricochet. Ce ne sont pas seulement les mesures qui sont importantes, c’est la mobilisation. Car, ce dont on a d’abord besoin, c’est que la société reconnaisse la dangerosité des hommes violents.
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